@funnyanimal @arisudotexe
Here's kinda what I think:
"Justice" is a buff'd up word that basically means the same thing as "fairness" or a state of things being fair. There's ample evidence that humans have some intuitive sense of this and that we share it with other primates. Zoologists have done those experiments where the monkey does the trick and gets the cucumber slice, the monkey next door does the same tricks, also gets a cucumber slice. Cool. Fine. Then the experimenters start giving one of the monkeys a grape while the other keeps getting the cucumber slice. Cucumber monkey gets pissed off, right away.
Have you all ever seen someone like, bump their head on an open kitchen cabinet door and get pissed off and slam the door shut? Like they're retaliating against the door for being open and hurting their head? Or someone smashes a game controller because the game controller made them lose the game? This is super primitive emotional incompetence combined with "anthropormorphizing" or animstically granting agency to an inert object. In the sentient world of Earth beings, one is not "wronged" by inert objects in some way that is fair or unfair and thus, can't be subject to an idea of justice, which is, a balancing of the scales or a balancing of accounts/debts owed or credited.
When we feel wronged by an object possessed of spirit and will (pretty much all the time, this means other sentient beings that aren't seen as "innocent" which, among other things, magically switches the way we balance accounts with them; when we feel wronged or treated unfairly, we feel like shit is out of balance. We seek a rebalancing.
This shit becomes hard because soooo much of what provokes that indignation in us can't be quantified and thus, the "books" can't be rebalanced. Let's play the anti's game for just a wee second and agree that a person possessed of cp is "wronging" those featured in the cp IF those featured are seen as innocent, (the adults are never reckoned to have been wronged) we have to, of course, go an extra distance, further into magic land as assume or believe or agree that the "weight of a stare" that is not immediately present to the subject of the stare can still "harm," spooky action at a distance. Let's just play along for a sec and pretend that shit is real and works like voodoo dolls can reach across space and time and fuck people up.
Assuming the innocent is wronged and the rebalancing needs to happen, how much wronged? Can one measure it? What is the value of dignity? Or the value of innocence? What is the severity of the insult?
Like, why is red prettier than blue or green or something?
Systematizing this shit into a justice SYSTEM is impossible if one is actually trying to be just and fair.
Vast amounts of what passes for law and justice wind up failing in these ways which is why anarchists and MAPs and whoever can point and say, "this shit is total nonsense" and it is.
BUT.....
But we sentients still have feelings. We can not fucking get rid of them, and probably, in most cases, we wouldn't want to. But this contributes to the utter stupidity and irrationality of the fucking system. Crimes that are person-wrongs-person crimes almost always fall back on the system's attempts to smooth over hurt feelings AND, when the crime/s don't actually injure the "wrong'd" party, for instance, if a necro gets caught fucking a corpse, then it's 100% about the feelings of the "victims" or their families, etc. and the interests of the State in controlling social values and behavior.
The system is trying to deal with anger and the desire for vengeance. In our American system (probably the most barbaric and primitive of the "rich" and "developed" nations) those negative feelings of fury and the urge to hurt or destroy that the victim or their survivors often feel is closer to that cabinet door slamming/game controller destroying primitivism than most other systems.
A better justice system has to not only way way more subtle and case-specific than big nation-state bureaucracies want to deal with, or maybe can, to this point, deal with (I have high hopes, personally, that AI/AGI will be able to help a lot with this) but also, people in general have to be encouraged to learn a lot more about emotional intelligence and competence and gain an understanding that their desire for a rebalancing of the books is fine and natural, but there are more pro-social ways of doing this than we so often have today.
Remember or note: Pretty much all law is downstream of culture as is all justice. Improve the culture by improving the people, and the systems will follow.
Here's kinda what I think:
"Justice" is a buff'd up word that basically means the same thing as "fairness" or a state of things being fair. There's ample evidence that humans have some intuitive sense of this and that we share it with other primates. Zoologists have done those experiments where the monkey does the trick and gets the cucumber slice, the monkey next door does the same tricks, also gets a cucumber slice. Cool. Fine. Then the experimenters start giving one of the monkeys a grape while the other keeps getting the cucumber slice. Cucumber monkey gets pissed off, right away.
Have you all ever seen someone like, bump their head on an open kitchen cabinet door and get pissed off and slam the door shut? Like they're retaliating against the door for being open and hurting their head? Or someone smashes a game controller because the game controller made them lose the game? This is super primitive emotional incompetence combined with "anthropormorphizing" or animstically granting agency to an inert object. In the sentient world of Earth beings, one is not "wronged" by inert objects in some way that is fair or unfair and thus, can't be subject to an idea of justice, which is, a balancing of the scales or a balancing of accounts/debts owed or credited.
When we feel wronged by an object possessed of spirit and will (pretty much all the time, this means other sentient beings that aren't seen as "innocent" which, among other things, magically switches the way we balance accounts with them; when we feel wronged or treated unfairly, we feel like shit is out of balance. We seek a rebalancing.
This shit becomes hard because soooo much of what provokes that indignation in us can't be quantified and thus, the "books" can't be rebalanced. Let's play the anti's game for just a wee second and agree that a person possessed of cp is "wronging" those featured in the cp IF those featured are seen as innocent, (the adults are never reckoned to have been wronged) we have to, of course, go an extra distance, further into magic land as assume or believe or agree that the "weight of a stare" that is not immediately present to the subject of the stare can still "harm," spooky action at a distance. Let's just play along for a sec and pretend that shit is real and works like voodoo dolls can reach across space and time and fuck people up.
Assuming the innocent is wronged and the rebalancing needs to happen, how much wronged? Can one measure it? What is the value of dignity? Or the value of innocence? What is the severity of the insult?
Like, why is red prettier than blue or green or something?
Systematizing this shit into a justice SYSTEM is impossible if one is actually trying to be just and fair.
Vast amounts of what passes for law and justice wind up failing in these ways which is why anarchists and MAPs and whoever can point and say, "this shit is total nonsense" and it is.
BUT.....
But we sentients still have feelings. We can not fucking get rid of them, and probably, in most cases, we wouldn't want to. But this contributes to the utter stupidity and irrationality of the fucking system. Crimes that are person-wrongs-person crimes almost always fall back on the system's attempts to smooth over hurt feelings AND, when the crime/s don't actually injure the "wrong'd" party, for instance, if a necro gets caught fucking a corpse, then it's 100% about the feelings of the "victims" or their families, etc. and the interests of the State in controlling social values and behavior.
The system is trying to deal with anger and the desire for vengeance. In our American system (probably the most barbaric and primitive of the "rich" and "developed" nations) those negative feelings of fury and the urge to hurt or destroy that the victim or their survivors often feel is closer to that cabinet door slamming/game controller destroying primitivism than most other systems.
A better justice system has to not only way way more subtle and case-specific than big nation-state bureaucracies want to deal with, or maybe can, to this point, deal with (I have high hopes, personally, that AI/AGI will be able to help a lot with this) but also, people in general have to be encouraged to learn a lot more about emotional intelligence and competence and gain an understanding that their desire for a rebalancing of the books is fine and natural, but there are more pro-social ways of doing this than we so often have today.
Remember or note: Pretty much all law is downstream of culture as is all justice. Improve the culture by improving the people, and the systems will follow.
@funnyanimal @arisudotexe Ugh, I got rollin' in there and made grammar errors and dropped necessary conjunctions and other small words/articles just because my brain was going faster than my fingers could keep up.
@arisudotexe this is only a half-formulated thought rn but i question the necessity of โjusticeโ as a concept at all in the first place, honestly